Curse

Weezer_Blue · Jun 12, 2005, 02:25 PM // 14:25

From a thread I made on another forum, this is the only "con" that has been presented by the PvE community of Unlock All Skills and Unlock All Runes. Supposedly, this is the only reason that UAS and UAR is not in Guild Wars at this very moment. That it somehow cheapens your PvE experience. In this thread, I would like to delve into the PvEer's psyche and discover what it is that makes them, or some of them, think this is true, and if it is a legitimate reason to deprive so many other players of a perfect PvP game. If you have any additional "cons" that you would like to present that would be in opppsition of UAS/UAR, you are welcome to post them. But beware, as we wish to dispatch them as well, if they are not worthy of the "pros" of a simply obvious solution. No "flames" or reasoning that is not backed up by simple human logic will be tolerated, if I have any say in the matter.

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What do I think makes people believe PvE would be cheapened by UAS/UAR? I honestly cannot say, which is why I created this thread. I think that it is because they recieve a feeling of acomplishment from unlocking one more thing and getting one more advantage over an enemy player - or closing the gap, if they are behind. But is this fair for a game that says, and quote: "You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat". If my assumption is correct, which lets hope it isn't, then wouldn't that mean that PvEers are against UAS/UAR because they wish to gain an unfair advantage over an enemy because they play more, therefore they think they earned it? To shift the playing field in their favor assuring them victory even though they may not "have what it takes" under balanced circumstances? Why isn't The Fianna on the ladder yet? Are they afraid that unless they resort to such things, they, as well, will be put at a disadvantage? Finally, I ask those of you that think in such a horrific manner: Would you actually *leave* Guild Wars if UAS and UAR were implimented? Please explain why.

As I said earlier, suggest any other possible "cons" of UAS/UAR. But before you jump at the chance, I shall throw out any that I think are simply rediculous. Feel free to bring them back up again, and hopefully someone else can make you see the light better than I can.

"PvPers need to 'earn' their skills and runes!"
-Why? The only thing a PvPer desires is his rating. Is that not all they must earn? You don't really "earn" anything through fighting mindless drones with horrible AI. You'd think monsters would move out of my Symbols of Wrath. But, nope... They stand right there and take the punishment. Why would this give me a feeling of accomplishment? So why must I, supposedly, earn my rigth to play the game I bought? I shouldn't. "Earning" things is just a stupid way to say "Hey! I played more than you! You haven't earned it yet!".

"PvEers will be put at a disadvantage"
-If you're really a PvEer, then you don't play PvP, do you? And if you're a mix of both, why don't you have a slot left for a PvP character? And in any case, you're not put at any disadvantage. You just have to grind before you are competitive... Say... kinda like...

Those are all I can think of, at the moment. If any more come to my attention, I'll make a new post or edit this one.

Keep it clean or I'll request that it is closed. And unless you have a new argument to present, instead of one that you stole from someone else and are trying to reitterate using the same analogy only changed to fool us, then don't post at all.

Caco-Cola · Jun 12, 2005, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Actually I didn't want it at first because I thought that this would allow for Level 3s to be using Hundred Blades.

Because I thought that since a PvP player could use PvE skills, surely it worked in vice versa.

But since it doesn't, I see no problem with it now.

DarrenJasper · Jun 12, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Thank you for posting this thread, I am very eager to see what happens. I promise not to jump down anyone's throat. Really.

Sekkira · Jun 12, 2005, 03:44 PM // 15:44

It ruins PvE because what are quests for? Experiance, sometimes skills and items you could sell off for a few gold because they aren't really worth equipping. Okay, so you remove skills with the UAS because well everything's unlocked, you don't need to earn skills. The items, which aren't really worth it are pretty much ignored anyway.

This leaves you with experience, which builds up your levels and gets you skill points. Which, oh wait, UAS, there goes the concept of skill points aswell. What do the missions give you? Exp, that is all. What is left then? Go through and get runes and weapons to customise your PvP char, oh wait, UAR. Then I guess all it leaves is to level up. But if you've done that, why go through pvp if all the effort to be put into things is taken out?

Just make a pvp character that's level 20 with any skill you want and any weapon you want. It suddenly has become GW:CS.

The concept of roleplaying is to develop your character and build them up by playing them. Unlocking everyone completely defeats the purpose of building up and development. Doing it for PvP only then would receive a backlash, the PvEers would complain about PvPers getting things handed to them and the people who PvP and PvE would see no point in doing the PvE for no reward and just stick with PvP.

The game so far is about rewarding skill, the skill decides your victory and what is your reward?

"Hay cool guys I defeated glint!"
"Good for you, my guild ranks number one in GvG"

Just yeah. This game is not all about PvP. It wasn't centered around PvP, it was designed with both in mind (although looking at things, more effort seems to be put into the PvE which doesn't have to be explained why or how). It seems the RP part is what the game really revolves around and aims to PvP.

UAS/R is not the direction the game was headed nor intended for, it is not an FPS in a RPG box. Sure you can create a PvP char from the start, but if you really wanted customisation, you would have to put a bit of effort into it and that's where the game ceased to be an empty shell. Making a purely customised character, unlocking every rune/skill/weapon does not make you any better in pvp then someone who does PvP with a template. They have just as much chance as winning if you have a team of customised and they have a team of templates.

Personally if Anet gave in and implemented the UAS/R, I would leave the game. It really would not be worth playing then. There is no joy or satisfaction with anything aside from maybe winning HoH or a few GvG matches. And that's all the game will have to it. I could not play that, it'd be just like every other FPS. Not to say I don't enjoy the PvP in this game, it's great, but I like to RP as well and with RPing comes rewards. It wont give me a greater advantage over someone or something, but it's a console to have a reward for an accomplishment of your effort.

You can't get something for nothing, doesn't matter where you are or what you're doing. You have to work and put effort into something to get something out of it. Implementing UAS/R will be getting nothing for something. GW is not like other MMO's, it's incredibly different, what it stands for and how it's done sets it aside from them. UAS/R will not only completely seperate it from an MMO, it will then be in the category of an FPS/Beatemup.

Loviatar · Jun 12, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

actually it doesnt boil down to screaming from either side

what counts is the developers who have thought about this for literally years

what they decide is what we will have

please note that this decision was made before a single peep was heard from the pve camp one way or the other

DarrenJasper · Jun 12, 2005, 03:46 PM // 15:46

People not reading original post.... Urge to flame... rising...

Awol Duteq · Jun 12, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

^^^ What Sekkira said is exactly the way I see it.

It's still marketed with three key letters, "RPG" and not "FPS". Name one RPG (even where you dont gain levels) that you dont need to reap some sort of rewards and just start with everything handed to you (I'm not only talking online here, all the way back to Commodore64 and AppleII). That'd be a pretty boring rpg imho.

I like taking a character I built around the map and pvp through GvG in the hall, or going to tombs with him through the Dragons Lair. If it was just givin to others right off the bat, then wth did I just spend some time building for? Absolutly nothing, no reasoning even behind the pve then. With pve+pvp, as the game is intended, its gratifying. You become your character, prove your build worthwhile, you don't need EVERY skill to compete, choose a few good builds from the start and stick with them... there's quite a few skills that certain people won't use or won't ever want to use. Some may be fine for pve, some may be better for pvp... it's part of the skill factor, build wisely.. or spend alot of wasted time trying to get every skill half of which you probably wont ever use. And anyone that says items and runes makes or breaks a pvp match is full of themselves, the items aren't that great.

ManadartheHealer · Jun 12, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Sekkira actually makes a pretty good "con" argument...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

what counts is the developers who have thought about this for literally years...what they decide is what we will have

...although, ultimately, that is the truth

john little · Jun 12, 2005, 04:17 PM // 16:17

I think the main 'con' is that once you start unlocking all skills, you start unlocking all runes...then all weapons...then all upgrades. You then end up with everyone copying each other's builds all the time. The game stops being 'condition' based and ends up being 'i do 0.5 more damage than you, i win'.

At the moment a player may get lucky with their 'forced' build through not having all the skills but knowing each one of the skills on the skillbar inside out. The other problem is that it forces you down a particular build path. Everyone will be asking 'are you an air elementalist set up like x' rather than 'looking for air elementalist' (which is too me still a specialisation too far, if i want to be a different elemental type, why can't I?).

If you only ever look at things from a 'competitive' PvP viewpoint, that's all you'll ever appeal to and everyone else will quit.

Shagsbeard · Jun 12, 2005, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Actually, it's purely financial. Games like this, even without a monthly fee, rely on a concept that the industry refers to as "stickiness". Stickiness is the difficulty a player has leaving the game. Stickiness is increased when a player has some form of investment, either time or money, in the game. If pvpers could UAS/UAR there would be no particular feeling of investment. Right now, accounts hold investment based on what a RP character has unlocked for PvP characters to use. Without that, the game would really just be two seperate games... like Unreal was. A tourney mode, and a SP mode. Linking the two games makes a more dynamic and strategic game.

Now... why not let players choose? Give a UAS/UAR option and let players play there and see what happens. Make it a wholely different server.

Why not? Because it would make the game less enjoyable to divide us all up. Societies thrive on diversity. PvPers interacting with RPers interacting with all sorts of other people.

Principa Discordia · Jun 12, 2005, 04:37 PM // 16:37

This is the millionth thread on the subject, and it almost always ends in a flamewar. I've already trashed one flamebait post here, so I'm warning you all to keep it constructive.

Branskins · Jun 12, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39

I would like a UAS button, or just let people choose from all the skills, because then it would be testing what you can do with them, because anyone can get all the skills if they have time. If you had all of them, you would have to learn how to use them.

Rasp · Jun 12, 2005, 05:03 PM // 17:03

I'd have to agree with Sekkira and everyone else. When I first joined the game, I was all against a UAS button. Now I'm at the point where it doesn't bother me if we have one or not. I do believe that adding the UAS will urge alot of people to quit, because as said. It would be GW:FPS style. There would really be no point in PvE, it doesn't have enough content to keep PvE fans addicted if they have nothing to work towards.

DarrenJasper, Why do you think people aren't reading the original post? Sekkira's post was done very nicely and gave reasons, like asked.

I also believe that victories are determined by skill, not hours played. I just don't believe runes are really affecting wins / looses so much, but this is just my opinion. ( No one needs to tell me how much having superior XXX rune will guarantee your win

)

ManadartheHealer · Jun 12, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shagsbeard

Stickiness is the difficulty a player has leaving the game. Stickiness is increased when a player has some form of investment, either time or money, in the game. If pvpers could UAS/UAR there would be no particular feeling of investment. Right now, accounts hold investment based on what a RP character has unlocked for PvP characters to use

I do agree that having UAS/UAR/UA? would make it so there is nothing to work for in the game and you feel no real attachment or investment in the game.

Personally, when I put forth effort to unlock a skill, I will appreciate that skill more and I do feel something is invested when I have almost all the monk skills unlocked

At first, I was for a UAS-type thing. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder "What will be left to do?"

Pandora's box · Jun 12, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

The most significant difference between the pvp and rpg population is that the pvp players like to play a quick game where rpg players like to explore and work for their runes and skills. I would have no problem with unlocking all skills and runes in pvp only games. But as a roleplayer I would rather work for them and have something like a horadric cube added to randomly change 3 of a kind into another one lol!

I mean: for a roleplayer the exploring may go on endlessly... For a reward of course!

Kazahana · Jun 12, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

its been suggested befor that pvpers could earn points for winning in pvp and use these points to buy skills from some sort of trainer better skills would cost more points and elites would cost even more. they could also earn runes and item upgrades by spending points for them but maybe on a character by character basis so if you buy a rune on one pvp character with your points you dont unlock it you just get it for that character

that way the pvpers can pvp and earn thier skills/runes/upgrades by winning and never have to pve.

Chev of Hardass · Jun 12, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

I am a PvEer, starting to venture into the PvP side of things. You wanted an opinion here it is and why:

I am opposed to the UAS option. Skills are earned right now. They are set goals and can be accomplished without any real heartbreak. The last update made it so easy to capture skills, you have no excuse to not be able to get the skills you are looking for (or all of them in my case). That said, the skill point system is screwed up. I cannot suggest a good way to fix it, but right now, if you change professions, you cannot get the skills you need for lack of skill points(without grinding for Exp).

I am, however, in support of the UAR option and UAI (items) option. These unlocks, in game, are purely random. While all the ranger crap I have gotten may benefit someone else, I do not know how to play ranger, yet. Since there is 0 skill involved with unolcking runes, I do not see why I do not have access to them (remember the speach about skill vs. time)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazahana

its been suggested befor that pvpers could earn points for winning in pvp and use these points to buy skills from some sort of trainer better skills would cost more points and elites would cost even more. they could also earn runes and item upgrades by spending points for them but maybe on a character by character basis so if you buy a rune on one pvp character with your points you dont unlock it you just get it for that character

that way the pvpers can pvp and earn thier skills/runes/upgrades by winning and never have to pve.

I agree with this, I think there should be some benefit to sucessful PvP. I have been hessitant about diving into the PvP, because I have not accomplished what I want to in the PvE side of things (unlocking all/most skills, runes, and weapons). If there was something I could unlock, except for a swell emote, from PvP I would be more ready to jump in with both feet.

Siran Dunmorgan · Jun 12, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

I'm against a button to unlock all options for PvP because it would cheapen the PvP game.

Allow me—as if you had any choice—to make a point that has been made before, and to draw an analogy that has been drawn many times.

First, the point that has been made in this very thread: that Guild Wars is not Counter Strike: Fantasy. It's also not Tribes, or Unreal Tournament, or any other game that has come before: it's Guild Wars.

Second, there are certain prounounced similarities to Magic: the Gathering, and to many other collectible card games. The similarity lies in this: that one may possess in sum a glittering array of cards from which to build a competitive deck, but you may take no more than a certain number—sixty, in the case of Magic: the Gathering—into a match with you.

Now, I know a number of Magic: the Gathering players. Most of them own thousands of cards. I probably have a thousand in my house even as I write, and I'm by no stretch of imagination a dedicated player.

None of them own anywhere near the cards they want: they're all constantly buying or trading for more, and rare cards are coveted by players who don't have them.

Everyone believes that having a better array of cards makes some players more successful than others. No one believes that Wizards of the Coast should simply provide a boxed set with all of the available cards for a given edition in it, to 'level the playing field' for all players.

It is a point of pride for Magic players that they have a particular rare card, and, sometimes, the presence or absence of such a card in a player's deck makes a difference in the play of a match: but, as in poker, one plays the hand one is dealt.

Were I to find that I could compose any character I wished in PvP play, I would not play at all, because the element of strategy, the campaign level of the game, would be completely absent. There would be only the match, only the battle, a meaningless brawl, with nothing at stake.

So I hold the Hall for a time: what of it? What do I win? Do I win more lands? More tribute? Is my life easier, because I have won? No. There isn't anything else, just more endless nights of struggling for the same empty triumph.

But when the game becomes campaign oriented—and it will, with the introduction of things like purchasable Guild Hall upgrades—then there'll be something worth fighting for.[1] Waging a war, a campaign, of an hundred battles against a mightier foe, and bringing them low in the end, aye—that'd be worth fighting for.

Building in a system of wagers, of things that mean something, such as wagering one or two skills per player—much as cards are wagered, in some collectible card games—such that the skills are re-locked if they lose, aye—and unlocked for the winner—that'd make some battles worth fighting, and some battles worth avoiding.

Actually rewarding performance in battle with new resources that I can use to change the course of the next battle: that's what would make it Guild Wars.

And, of course, that's impossible if the playing field is 'level' every time we enter a match.

So, no—I'm not in favor of an 'unlock all' option, and for a reason that has nothing at all to do with PvE.

—Siran Dunmorgan

[1] Remember, it's always been the intent of the designers to implement a campaign level of the game, e.g. with Guilds contending for control of towns and outposts, represented by their banners flying in the towns, and some portion of transactions in those towns going as 'tribute' to the Guild that 'rules' the town.

I don't expect this to be implemented this year, though I'm interested in the 'tournament' they'll have this summer, and the promised 'purchasable' Guild Hall upgrades will lend something of a campaign flavor to the Guild vs. Guild game.

Having Guild ante up resources such as gold or Guild Hall upgrades—"If you win, you get the catapult next time"—would be a bold step in the right direction; perhaps not as bold, nor as universally applicable as wagering skills, runes, or weapon upgrades, but something ArenaNet could implement without incurring the ire of the 'every match must be perfectly balanced' clan.

Evan The Cursed · Jun 12, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Don't say "PvE community" because I'm a 100% total PvE'r and fully support the return of the UAS button.

EDIT: Read the rest of the thread and I'd just like to add -

Quote:

Originally Posted by john little

You then end up with everyone copying each other's builds all the time. The game stops being 'condition' based and ends up being 'i do 0.5 more damage than you, i win'.

If that were to happen, then it would be more the fault of unbalanced skills and classes than anything else. But I don't really think that's the case. (or would be)

Tuna · Jun 12, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

I don't understand why you all say you 'earn' the skills you unlock. Unlocking skills is piss easy, the only challenge is getting enough skill points among your four characters.

Before someone yells at me, I'll state that some skills, perticularly the ones up in mineral springs can be tricky (read: time consuming), but most of them are easy to get.